Length of Expert Races

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Doug Long	Length of Expert Races	Lead	[-]
Posts: 24 (06/23/08 17:35:05) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : None Is is just me, or are the expert level distances getting shorter? Does anyone out there remember the day when all expert level races were never less than 20 miles and more in the 24-30 mile range? It's just my observation that the races seem to be getting shorter. I think the standard used to be: an hour for beginners, 1 1/2-2 hours for sport, and 2 hours plus for experts. I don't understand why the Expert 40-49 and the ovr 50 racers are getting their distances reduced to the sport distance. Might as well start the sports with the experts and combine classes if your going to dummy down the distance. What is the deciding factor that determines a sport rider from an expert? I always thought it was the extra training and skill level. Are we just getting softer? Id be curious to hear what others have to say. If your drivining 5+ hours to race (7 for me), shouldn't a race be at least 2 hours?
chickenfer	Yes	#1	[-]
Posts: 4 (06/23/08 17:55:43) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Expert races should be and used to be 1:45 - 2:10 hrs. I assumed that was/is in the USA Cycling rule book??
AllNames	Race Lengths.	#2	[-]
Posts: 542 (06/23/08 18:03:42) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Doug 50+ Race lengths in the AMBCS races have been the same as the sport race. 40-49 Races got to vote on the length of the race - I guess we are getting lazy because we voted for 2 1/2 laps instead of 3 1/2. Don't think that much would have changed in the results - by the time 2 1/2 laps were done the order was pretty well set the most that would ahve changed would have been 1 or 2 places further down the line unless someone had a mech. Spring and Fall Races usually go full expert distance but in the summer I think alot of the guys don't mind a shorter race. As for you, since you were faster that all of the people in the 50+ and the 40-49 based on your time, you do have the option to race down in class like the 30-39's and get more distance. I think I'm glad that I didn't try to race with you in WV - you were about 10 minutes faster than me. Kurt
Doug Long		#3	[-]
Posts: 25 (06/24/08 04:08:14) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Kurt: The point I'm trying to make is, we are expert racers. There are three classes of racers. What separates one class from the other is skill and fitness. This was a national level race and qualifier for the National Championships at Mt. Snow. At Mt. Snow the Masters 50-54 and 55-59 will race the full expert distance that all the other experts will race. Not until the 60+ class will they "lap down". If you can't go the extra distance here, at speed, why bother to make the trip to Vermont? If they are going to continue to reduce the distance and ride the same course as the sport level, they might as well do away with ability classes and have everyone do the same distance and age group em like running races. I just jumped to two different sites for comparison. One was the West Virginia site and the other was the Southeast series. Both had races last weekend. All the experts in W. Virginia did 27 miles. The Southeast experts did 33 miles (all classes). Maybe when USA Cycling changes over to new categories next year: Cat 1, Cat 2, Cat 3, they will set some standards for length of races for all ages. As a Master racer, I know I don't have the strength of the younger experts, but I do have the fitness. We can do the extra miles, we're just going to be a little slower. I paid $50 on Sunday to ride my bike 1 hr. 15 minutes. At least when I paid $60 for the Ouachita Challenge and the Syllamo's Revenge, I got 50 and 80 miles of riding. Everything else about the event on Sunday was first class. Fred and his staff really put on a quality event. Very professional. I'd suggest this event to any of my racing buddies up north and the trail system had a little of everything. Lots of fun, just needs to be longer for the "old experts!" Just my opinion, and obviously, I'll continue to come down and race in Arkansas cause the trails are awesome and so are the racers.
guehead	good point	#4	[-]
Posts: 256 (06/24/08 06:36:06) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	hi doug, guehead here!!! im the expert that took a looooooong time to finish. i moved up to expert for the longer distance. i just didnt feel "done" enough on the shorter races. granted i am the slowest of all the experts, including the women(really) i still race or in my case ride for the distance. three and a half laps at burns part is brutal for normal people two and a half is doable for normal people four and a half in my openion is crazy!!! sure, you have the option to "cat" down and you could have and enjoyed 3 and a half with us 30-39 that didnt have a choice. sorry for the poor experience. come on back and get you some at fat tire festival. that might be more to your liking. its my favorite race course of all times. and i love the way they add the lake laps at the end. guehead
chickenfer	guehead	#5	[-]
Posts: 5 (06/24/08 11:36:21) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	why did guehead move up to expert if the lenght of the races are the same as sport?
Doug Long		#6	[-]
Posts: 27 (06/24/08 11:47:07) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The 30-39 expert class at Three Legged Dog did 3 1/2 laps. The sports did 2 1/2 laps. I was referring to the 40-49 and 50+ expert classes that we're lapped down to the sport level 2 1/2 laps. I say all the experts should be doing the same distance. That's my point. Guehead: I'll be racing at Mt. Snow at the National championships the weekend of the Fatty fest. This is also my favorite race of the year and I've only missed it once and that was the last time I raced the national championships in Durango, Colo. The course favors my riding style and I love the steep climbing. There will be a new Expert 50+ champion this year cause I won't be there to defend it. As a matter of fact, the first three finishers at Three Legged Dog may all be out at Vermont that weekend.
LSRobert		#7	[-]
Posts: 7 (06/24/08 17:52:39) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I agree with Doug that all experts should be doing the full expert distance. Most of us old guys get slower but we should be able to cover the same distance...eventually.
chrisrenshaw		#8	[-]
Posts: 4 (06/25/08 09:55:19) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Doug, congratulations on your win Sunday. I understand you wanting to race the longer distance, especially travelling so far to compete. But, it was clearly stated on the event site the distances the age groups were to do. I think one reason for the reduced mileage is to keep people racing and encourage upgrading in the older age groups. That distance in the heat of summer is too great for some even though they may have expert skill level. My suggestion would be to race down in age group regionally and race age group nationally. The younger guys would 'push' you hard and maybe prepare you for the national events. Good luck in Vermont! Chris
Nathan		#9	[-]
Posts: 322 (06/30/08 13:12:56) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I'm glad someone has brought up this topic. I've brought it up various times before over the last few years, although not always in the context of Expert only. It's actually not an expert-only issue. Each class seems to be getting de-lapped. Actually this shift took place about 5-yrs ago, about the same time the Devils Den & Eureka went from true 2-day stage races to 1-day affairs (I believe '03 was last yr of the 2-dayer at DD). Before that, Beginners (base for building laps) was ALWAYS 2 laps, no matter the venue (well, day 1 of stage races where it was point-to-point didn't count as laps). Beginner was always 2, sport 3, Expert 4 laps. I'm talkin' courses like Pigeon at the old location, 2 laps for Beginner was serious distance. I was sport that year, 02 i think, and did 3 laps in the rain/mud, I think my time was just under 2hrs...and I was a close 3rd. Provides context. Jonesboro that same yr had a big digital clock over the finish line, I came in 3rd sport, 2hr15min. That's distance... But somewhere it got pruned down. I haven't done the math lately, but Beginners may often be riding 30-45 minutes for a race. When this topic is raised, one of the familiar refrains is: if you want longer distance, race a higher class. That argument isn't valid for a list of reasons which I hold to be self evident. The real question is why? The best answer that's been shared with me is TIME. Especially in instances where you don't want multiple classes on the course at the same time. To run those distances, and run Beg, Sport, then Ex sequentially, you'll be there for a long time before you get Experts off the course. Think of being a beginner and waiting until 3pm for awards. In a "different" 2wheeled offroad racing series in the state...they start at 1230, run all classes at the same time, and the race is 2hrs+1 lap, no matter how fast/slow/old you might be. Friggin' brutal. I'm not saying I have an elegant solution, just lamenting days gone by. Anyway, water under the bridge for me. I'll be lucky to finish 1 lap anywhere, but I do miss the old days. Last Edited By: Nathan 06/30/08 13:26:19. Edited 4 times.
sarah		#10	[-]
Posts: 60 (06/30/08 14:24:41) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Nathan-the FASTEST beginner at Burn's was 51 minutes, and that was a Master Man (super competitive class); are you suggesting that they should have ridden the sport distance of 2.5 laps instead? I totally understand Doug's point of view, but don't necessarily jive with the whole generalization that was just made.
tirebuster		#11	[-]
Posts: 55 (07/01/08 05:19:39) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	In 1991 I did my first MTB race in California, there was 3 clases and all did the same corse of about 26mi,out of 80 to 90 beg I only seen a few again,do what Chris and Richard and many I know out west do.I like the format for the options.this gives me 3 clases I can loose in!
guehead	racen	#12	[-]
Posts: 258 (07/01/08 15:26:27) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	im wondering how much of this is due to promoters? they seem to be the ones that place the stipulations on laps and such. i have absolutely no expertise in such matters and can therefore not be held acountable for my speculations so that being said... why are races getting shorter- is it to shorten the events so that promoters, volenteers, organizations in charge of things... arent burdened further than they already are or some such... why? we just want to know? i have said it once before, thats why i moved up to sport and from sport to expert--- for the distance. and as for having experts and beginners on the trail at the same time, we experts have a way ofh dealing with that- we let them know we are back there and then blaze by them before they can blink an eye. thats what happened to me in beginner and sport and it still happens to me today in expert. there shouldnt be an expert out there that has a problem with beginners or sports on the course. i know i dont. put simply, have you ever been passed by richard M. at a race!?! that fellow flys by you and you have been passed. i trust my wife and boy to be on any course with expert and sport riders because every sp and ex rider i know would rather get hurt themselves than hurt another-especially a beginner/women/child/anyone i recall my second race ever- when burns park started over by the river-a child had thrown a chain on a nasty section of trail, 4 experts flew by me like i was standing still and a few min.s later, i arrived on a truely sportsman like sight. first place expert(hounded by three others) stoped and helped that kid get his chain on- sure-he could have flown by but he stoped-heres the amazing part-2nd, 3rd and 4th, stoped and waited for 1st to get back on his bike and away they went. wow i thought this is a sport to be a part of!!! so maybe we could recall some other things that "used" to happen and get back to "grassroots racing" speaking of which, is it just me or does anyone else feel as if we might be losing our "grass roots" edge that arkansas mountain biking was known for? distance might be just the tip of the ice burg the sinks ambcs.
AllNames	As Usual Gue Your Spouting B.S.	#13	[-]
Posts: 548 (07/01/08 18:18:00) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Somebody needs to take steves computer away from him and give him a bike so he can ride more than talk. I didn't move up to expert for the distance - I move up to race faster people. The normal 50+ experts don't have a problem with racing the same distance as the sports there aren't that many in the group and if you push the distance you might not get any. The problem came form a national level race that was faster than most of the 40+ guys that probably should have drop and raced in the money race instead of whining about the race distance The guys on 40-49 - pick there distance at most venues - so its up to racer - I don't see that as being a problem. Little rocks problem is that you can only stretch so much trail together to get the race. I do have a suggestion on the course that could get fred an extra 1/2 mile or 3 minutes per lap to get him close to where the times should be for the race. Little Rock with its start times for the groups and the begginers starting at different time than experts and sports was run the way a race should be. Its a pain in the ass for beginners to be constantly giving way to faster riders. You should know that gue since your getting passed so much Kurt Speaking of riding steve - Coming down to ruston on the 3rd - can you or any of tbs guys get away.
Nathan		#14	[-]
Posts: 323 (07/02/08 09:04:54) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	sarah wrote: Nathan-the FASTEST beginner at Burn's was 51 minutes, and that was a Master Man (super competitive class); are you suggesting that they should have ridden the sport distance of 2.5 laps instead? I totally understand Doug's point of view, but don't necessarily jive with the whole generalization that was just made. Sarah, I don't know..I wasn't at the Race. Nor have I raced a mtb race in a couple years (Springhill '06 I think was my last race). I'm also not trying to propose a solution, nor suggest that instantly we should have all beginners run "X amount of time or distance." However, my "whole generalization" is accurate. Used to be...that Beginners always did 2 laps of whatever the course was... sport did 3, Expert 4. Thats just how it was back, pre-circa-2003. I'm merely lamenting and sharing days gone past...along with my personal fitness and mojo, of course. I have no tidy solutions, nor do I KNOW why the change occured. My GUESS in those matters is that it was time-constraints and a general desire (founded or unfounded) to not have multiple classes on the course at the same time. In semi-related news (unrelated), I plan to get back in the saddle!! Yippie for me!! 35 yrs old this summer. I've got 2x that in LB's to lose. If I can get my bike in, in time...I'll be bringin' the rear up in the Fat Boy class at Eureka in 16 days or so. Last Edited By: Nathan 07/02/08 09:11:59. Edited 1 times.
guehead	nop	#15	[-]
Posts: 260 (07/02/08 17:51:36) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	hi kurt, cant be there tomorrow, got tons of yards to mow and all, i mean all of my clients want pretty grass for the forth. go figure. anyway... you know that i talk even if im on a bike or not, at least im not singing dukes of hazzard theme songs anymore! the prozak really took care of that tick. i just wish it would get rid of "all" the others. i couldnt fathem doing 4 laps at mena!!! are you crazy at least i didnt get any hate mail for my last post. besides kurt you dont count, because you are my bud and did i mention, you dont count anyway.
AllNames	be glad	#16	[-]
Posts: 549 (07/03/08 13:10:27) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Steve, Be glad you were to busy mowing laws - It was just plain hot today - nothing but sweat no blood no tears just sweat. K
guehead	sweat	#17	[-]
Posts: 261 (07/03/08 16:45:19) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	sounds to me like you didnt try hard enough. i never leave ruston with out at least alittle blood and alot of sweat. glad to hear you had fun though. i was mowing in all that heat you were recreating in. now, who do you think had more fun? steven

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